It's not a cliche...yet
Nov. 6th, 2006 01:05 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
clarentineThe first thing you need to know about the WFC 2006 panels is that there weren't a lot of them. They started at 10 and ran until 5:30, with the occasional reading or banquet thereafter, and there were usually only two at any one given time, not including readings. There was time set aside for lunch and dinner breaks, without programming. (Very useful to ensure that no one passes out due to hunger, but myself, I could have used more options. And no, I didn't volunteer to help with programming, which makes me the worst sort of hypocrite, but there it is.)
Often, the topic suggested in the program was only barely touched upon, so some of these topics may not match up in any noticeable fashion with the notes. Also, they're my notes, right? So they're notes of a panel through my eyes and my brain, and my filters. I'm not pretending to be reporting the news. However, a lot of what I'm capturing below and in the subsequent posts will be notes of what was said. I'll leave you to make your own value judgments and do your own thinking on the validity (or lack thereof) of what was said--feel free to comment! Dialogues about disputed topics are very enlightening.
The cliche panel was held Friday morning. Moderator was Lee Modesitt; panelists included Glenn Cook, Carole Nelson Douglas, Eric Flint, and Diana Gill.
The panel description was: Pirates and Arthur are fantasy cliches, as are dragons. What about Nazis, dinosaurs, ninjas, and talking gorillas? Do elements of such ideas exclude them from frequent use in fantasy, preserving them from becoming cliches? Or is it only a matter of time?
Cook said that cliches are what makes fantasy work; they're built-in as part of the human story.
Douglas said she uses the elements of a cliche to attack it, thus building tension.
Gill noted that, in order to be a cliche, there as to be something interesting behind the concept or it would never have been so frequently used to begin with. [This in particular made me think.]
Flint said that cliches were very helpful in blending genres.
Modesitt asked the panelists what fantasy cliche annoys them the most?
Flint said it was Elves - if they're so perfect, why are they dying out? (direct quote, there.)
Modesitt said his pet peeve were dragons. He couldn't get around the lack of understanding of physics and other real objections to their presence in a society. (He noted he was an economist.)
Gill said she hated spunky heroines. She said there has to be more to the character beyond just that she's spunky.
Douglas took the opposite tack, and said she despises the wimpy female protag.
Cook named the unicorn; he noted that in one of his earlier stories he'd made them more like wolverines on steroids, and liked them much better that way. Other panelists agreed.
Gill said that you can take any cliche and make it work.
Modesitt asked the panel when they would deliberately use a cliche?
Cook said he'd use it as a mirror to play other characters off of.
Flint said a writer shouldn't work so hard to avoid cliches as to make a silly mess of the situation or character. There's only so far you can bend a character.
Douglas said that, if characters are well-built, they can't be cliches. (hear, hear!)
Cook said that cliches are very useful shorthand - you no longer have to spend 30 pages selling a concept if your reader already has bought into it; all you have to do is invoke the cliche.
Modesitt said you have to understand the expectations beneath a cliche. You have to consider the ramifications of its use on the rest of your worldbuilding.
Flint said he was very unhappy with SF future worlds with societies structured like those of the feudal past; why wouldn't a future society look different than what we have already seen? He specifically mentioned the difficulty in supporting mercenaries, economically.
Modesitt added, as a trained economist, how he was disturbed by the lack of understanding in so much fantasy of the realities and necessities of social structures. The amount of labor needed to support 10,000 armed knights so they could do battle with 10,000 other armed knights is mindblowingly huge and, in a feudal society, almost impossible to achieve.
Modesitt asked is there anything so fundamental that, despite overuse, it's not a cliche?
Flint said that the concepts of religion and religious writing (he specifically named the Bible as an example) are so ingrained in every society that they could not be cliches.
Gill said there were only about 5 basic plots, and those were not cliches.
Douglas said the Hero's Quest and its mythological elements are archetypes.
Modesitt asked if readers/editors really want what's really different?
Gill replied it depends on what the reader's in the mood for.
Cook said no, not really.
Flint offered a quote from Mercedes Lackey: "the fastest way for an author to starve is to write what the fans tell her."
Modesitt asked what happens if you as an author invent something that becomes a cliche?
Douglas said it becomes harder and harder to do something different as you accumulate more stories to your credit. She suggested that writers consider using multiple protagonists for variety--that a long series will last longer if the writer doesn't always tell the story from one protag's eyes.
Gill said don't get lazy; keep working at it, keep seizing what's new and incorporating it into your work.
Flint said to be careful not to become too focused and burn yourself out - keep doing new things.
Flint had a great quote: "A cliche is a trope done badly."
Modesitt noted that a concept like the "common tongue" would never have happened. [Chris whistles and looks away from the screen.]
Cook said that two cultures seeing the same thing and understanding it differently is the source of terrific conflict.
The book The Tough Guide to Fantasyland came in for hearty recommendations for writers wanting to avoid poor use of cliches.
Modesitt said a writer could give one scene showing how the basis (buildings, food, cooking) work, and then they could just make offhand references to such basics without having to go into detail again. He said he'd been twitted about having so many cooking scenes, and asked us to consider when people would be making decisions about their plans if they're traveling, or fighting, or otherwise occupied--of course, since they would all be gathered to eat, that was the logical point at which those plans would be made.
I personally thought this was the most useful of all the panels I attended, in that it made me think about what a cliche was and why it was--not just that we should not use cliches, but how to use them properly.
Often, the topic suggested in the program was only barely touched upon, so some of these topics may not match up in any noticeable fashion with the notes. Also, they're my notes, right? So they're notes of a panel through my eyes and my brain, and my filters. I'm not pretending to be reporting the news. However, a lot of what I'm capturing below and in the subsequent posts will be notes of what was said. I'll leave you to make your own value judgments and do your own thinking on the validity (or lack thereof) of what was said--feel free to comment! Dialogues about disputed topics are very enlightening.
The cliche panel was held Friday morning. Moderator was Lee Modesitt; panelists included Glenn Cook, Carole Nelson Douglas, Eric Flint, and Diana Gill.
The panel description was: Pirates and Arthur are fantasy cliches, as are dragons. What about Nazis, dinosaurs, ninjas, and talking gorillas? Do elements of such ideas exclude them from frequent use in fantasy, preserving them from becoming cliches? Or is it only a matter of time?
Cook said that cliches are what makes fantasy work; they're built-in as part of the human story.
Douglas said she uses the elements of a cliche to attack it, thus building tension.
Gill noted that, in order to be a cliche, there as to be something interesting behind the concept or it would never have been so frequently used to begin with. [This in particular made me think.]
Flint said that cliches were very helpful in blending genres.
Modesitt asked the panelists what fantasy cliche annoys them the most?
Flint said it was Elves - if they're so perfect, why are they dying out? (direct quote, there.)
Modesitt said his pet peeve were dragons. He couldn't get around the lack of understanding of physics and other real objections to their presence in a society. (He noted he was an economist.)
Gill said she hated spunky heroines. She said there has to be more to the character beyond just that she's spunky.
Douglas took the opposite tack, and said she despises the wimpy female protag.
Cook named the unicorn; he noted that in one of his earlier stories he'd made them more like wolverines on steroids, and liked them much better that way. Other panelists agreed.
Gill said that you can take any cliche and make it work.
Modesitt asked the panel when they would deliberately use a cliche?
Cook said he'd use it as a mirror to play other characters off of.
Flint said a writer shouldn't work so hard to avoid cliches as to make a silly mess of the situation or character. There's only so far you can bend a character.
Douglas said that, if characters are well-built, they can't be cliches. (hear, hear!)
Cook said that cliches are very useful shorthand - you no longer have to spend 30 pages selling a concept if your reader already has bought into it; all you have to do is invoke the cliche.
Modesitt said you have to understand the expectations beneath a cliche. You have to consider the ramifications of its use on the rest of your worldbuilding.
Flint said he was very unhappy with SF future worlds with societies structured like those of the feudal past; why wouldn't a future society look different than what we have already seen? He specifically mentioned the difficulty in supporting mercenaries, economically.
Modesitt added, as a trained economist, how he was disturbed by the lack of understanding in so much fantasy of the realities and necessities of social structures. The amount of labor needed to support 10,000 armed knights so they could do battle with 10,000 other armed knights is mindblowingly huge and, in a feudal society, almost impossible to achieve.
Modesitt asked is there anything so fundamental that, despite overuse, it's not a cliche?
Flint said that the concepts of religion and religious writing (he specifically named the Bible as an example) are so ingrained in every society that they could not be cliches.
Gill said there were only about 5 basic plots, and those were not cliches.
Douglas said the Hero's Quest and its mythological elements are archetypes.
Modesitt asked if readers/editors really want what's really different?
Gill replied it depends on what the reader's in the mood for.
Cook said no, not really.
Flint offered a quote from Mercedes Lackey: "the fastest way for an author to starve is to write what the fans tell her."
Modesitt asked what happens if you as an author invent something that becomes a cliche?
Douglas said it becomes harder and harder to do something different as you accumulate more stories to your credit. She suggested that writers consider using multiple protagonists for variety--that a long series will last longer if the writer doesn't always tell the story from one protag's eyes.
Gill said don't get lazy; keep working at it, keep seizing what's new and incorporating it into your work.
Flint said to be careful not to become too focused and burn yourself out - keep doing new things.
Flint had a great quote: "A cliche is a trope done badly."
Modesitt noted that a concept like the "common tongue" would never have happened. [Chris whistles and looks away from the screen.]
Cook said that two cultures seeing the same thing and understanding it differently is the source of terrific conflict.
The book The Tough Guide to Fantasyland came in for hearty recommendations for writers wanting to avoid poor use of cliches.
Modesitt said a writer could give one scene showing how the basis (buildings, food, cooking) work, and then they could just make offhand references to such basics without having to go into detail again. He said he'd been twitted about having so many cooking scenes, and asked us to consider when people would be making decisions about their plans if they're traveling, or fighting, or otherwise occupied--of course, since they would all be gathered to eat, that was the logical point at which those plans would be made.
I personally thought this was the most useful of all the panels I attended, in that it made me think about what a cliche was and why it was--not just that we should not use cliches, but how to use them properly.
jammarlibre
Date: 2007-10-12 08:13 pm (UTC)Thanks for your site.